Lee Pro-1000 vs. Dillon XL650

Yeah, I know, not a fair comparison. But here is the deal...

My primary loading is for .40 S&W, .45 ACP and .223. I also load for .38/.357 Mag, .41 mag/.414 Supermag, 10mm, .40 Super and several common high-power bottleneck rifle calibers and 12 gauge.

I have been a supporter of the Lee Pro-1000 as a good first press, especially for those on a budget for awhile now. I used to own 2, but now just have one. I have loaded well over 150,000 rounds on Lee Pro-1000s. And, especially for large cases and large primers, it is finicky and prone to need some coaxing. I load about 350 rounds per hour on average. As far as the Lee Loadmaster, I can not recommend it at all. I have had three friends with them and we have tried all the tricks and they just don't measure up. The 10mm loading and the .45 ACP loading is what really got me to thinking more and more about a Dillon. (Two large plastic cups full of "Bad Loads" after loading about 3,000 rounds seemed too high to me. Now I am going to keep the Lee Pro-1000 for .38/.357 Mag. It works almost perfectly for those calibers, and I don't load enough to need the higher rate of the XL650. I'll probably load the small amount of .41 Mag and .414 Super mag I use on the Lee Pro-1000 as well, but we will see.

Now, why did I choose the 650? Well, to me a progressive should be progressive, anything under the 650 is not really any faster than the Lee Pro-1000. Also, I wanted standard dies and I wanted to be able to load rifle calibers as well. I either borrowed, tried, or watched operation of almost every press on the market that could be considered a competitor with the Pro-1000 and the XL650. Also, I have been REALLY happy with Dillon’s customer service. They let me use a set of dies at no charge for a wildcat cartridge, and even gave me some load data. Initially, with the 650, I will be able to load .40 S&W, 10mm, .40 Super, .45 ACP, and .223. I talked, tried and researched, trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. Also, I figured I buy what I feel are the best guns, the best cars, and the best electronics, etc. why skimp on a press. I am sure I will load another 500,000 rounds minimum in my life, I can afford 0.002 cents more per round! So, I just sunk over $1000 into a Dillon XL650 with the bells and whistles. I bought it from Brian Enos who was great to deal with. It should be on its way shortly and once I get it set up, I'll post my initial impressions. I also plan to run a full out race eventually. I'll see which press loads the fastest and which loads the best rounds with the fewest bobbles and rejects. I'll do caliber changes on the clock and post my results.

I have seen so many arguments about Lee vs. RCBS. vs. Dillon vs. etc. that I decided I would make the sacrifice for you all and try out a Dillon. Check back next week for "Set-up Woes or Bliss". July 18, 2002

I did learn one thing more this week from the folks on GlockTalk, the 1050 does not have the lifetime warranty like the other Dillon machines. I just happened to call home and was talking to my wife while she was changing our son’s diaper when she heard the infamous UPS truck pull up. I have not only several boxes from Dillon, but a box of 10,000 .223 bullets. I’ll be setting the machine up this weekend and we will see how it goes. July 23, 2002

Well, I watched the video and set up the 650 last night. I even used the manual some. I would definitely not call it hard, but most people will need some help, or to watch the video. It took me about 1 1/2 hours to set it all up after the video. That includes the case feeder, powder check, and the RF100 primer filler. I had all the parts and everything was as it was supposed to be. I am using Redding Dies and adjustment of the five stations was pretty easy. My initial set-up was for .40 S&W. With so many manuals and a lot of spare parts, I decided to make myself a notebook to contain all the paperwork. I copied the caliber conversion list and went through and highlighted all the spare/conversion parts I had. When I bought the press, I ordered the spare parts kit. I went through and labeled some of the spare parts, like the different case feed adapters, etc and got a compartmentalized small parts box and put them in that. If I get this thing set up for 6 or 7 calibers, I can see how you might eventually lose track of some small parts.

As compared to the Lee, the Dillon is much more complicated, much better built and has more parts. When I first got the Lee Pro-1000, from box to first load was about 15 minutes. I never even read the directions. If only looking at set-up ease, the Lee has the definite advantage. There are fewer parts, more simplicity and less time for set-up.

I'll be loading a few hundred rounds later on and I'll let you know some times, bobbles and some first impressions. July 27, 2002

Okay, here are some results:

DILLON XL650

Just loading at a steady pace, nothing else: about 1100 rounds/hour.

In 6 minutes, I loaded 61 rounds, refilled the primer magazine and started another on the RL100, added 200 new cases to the casefeeder, and weighed one powder charge. So 610 rounds/hour.

In 20 minutes, I loaded 294 rounds, refilled 3 primer magazines, added 400 cases to the casefeeder, cleared 4 jams (one primer, 2 case ejector, one case feeder) and weighed 3 charges. Comes out to 882 rounds/hour.

In the first 100 rounds loaded, I had 3 bad loads, 1 high primer, one upside down primer, and one crushed primer. I also forgot to put the early warning low primer rod in once, ran about 15 rounds through with no primers, and had a mess to clean up. In the next 500 loads, I had 6 bad loads, all primer issues.

I was using a 5.9 grain charge of WSF (flattened ball). I pulled 30 slugs and weighed charges. I found one at 5.2 grains, one at 5.6 and the rest were 5.8-5.9. I found no heavy charges.

LEE PRO-1000

Just loading at a steady pace, nothing else, about 850 rounds/hour.

In 6 minutes, I loaded 32 rounds, refilled the primer tray and added 100 new cases to the casefeeder, and weighed one powder charge. So 320 rounds/hour.

In 20 minutes, I loaded 165 rounds, refilled 2 primer trays, added 200 rounds to the casefeeder, and weighed 3 charges. Comes out to 495 rounds/hour.

In the 100 rounds loaded, I had 1 bad load which was a crushed primer. With small primers, I typically have about 2 problems per 100, usually primer related.

I was using the same 5.9 grain charge of WSF. I pulled 30 slugs and weighed charges. I found two at 5.7 grains and the rest were 5.8-5.9. I found no heavy charges.

Step by step comparison...

Case feeder: Here the ease and simplicity of the Lee might be an advantage. I kept getting cases damming up in the funnel on the XL650. Also, I tossed a 45 case in with 50 .40 cases. It was not readily apparent when it came down, and it was harder to clear than with the Lee. However, the Dillon is much faster due in part to the casefeeder.

Deprime and size: I can't really say one is better or worse operationally. The Dillon exerts more force, so you barely feel the resize operation. I'll talk about the sizing quality later.

Prime: The Dillon wins here. The system is safer, easier and faster. However, on the Lee, if a case does not trip the lever on the way by, you don't get a primer. The Dillon keeps them coming. Also the Lee is easier to empty if you still have primers left. But, and it took me a while to figure it out, if there is no case in the Dillon, the primer just goes down a chute and you can re-use it. With the Lee, it a primer is in place and there is no case, you MUST manually remove it or jam the machine. Both machines can get you a loaded case with an upside down primer.

Powder drop: I think this one is a wash, IF you have the adjustable charge bar for the Lee. Both bell the case mouth in the same way, neither drops a charge if there is no case, both had about the same accuracy. The low charge weights in the Dillon were due to powder flipping out when a case would get stuck on the case ejector, the machine accelerated at a speed where powder came out of the case.

Powder Check: Dillon has it, Lee does not. I really enjoyed not having to look in each case.

Seat and Crimp: Lee seats and crimps in one die. By definition, this won't make as good a crimp as two separate operations. However, operationally, it made no difference.

Remember, I was using Redding dies (Pro series). I did find that the Redding dies did a MUCH better job of removing any case bulge at the base of the case. I tried it with brass and nickel cases and some with huge bulges. The Lee left an "S" shape to the case wall, even when all the way down to the shell plate, while the Redding dies left it straight. Nickel cases would get stuck in the Lee dies, but not in the Redding dies. I did take some Redding seated and crimped cases and some Lee seated and crimped cases and ran them through the Lee factory Crimp die. I found improvement in the Lee crimped cases, but not in the Redding caes. The Reddings appear to do fine on their own. Using a Wilson match barrel, everything from both machines dropped right in. Using a calipers, the Lee had more inconsistency of dimensions, especially in the web. The Redding produced ammo to factory dimensions and of better quality.

As far as caliber conversion, the Lee is the definite winner, both on a cost basis and speed. I did a .40 to .45 caliber conversion on both presses utilizing pre-set dies on a spare tool head. This required switching shell plates and primer sizes on both. The Lee took just a shade over 4 minutes. The Dillon took 17 minutes.

Loading .45 ACP, the Dillon went about the same, but the Lee quadruples the number of bad cases. I get about 10% bad cases using large primers.

Granted, I have loaded over 150,000 rounds on Lee Pro-1000s and am very familiar with its operation and "needs". I only have 500 rounds loaded on the XL650.

Both machines have some real benefits, and some drawbacks. However, the only major drawback with the Dillon is cost and complexity (some might see it as a drawback, I really don't). The Lee primer system is it's biggest drawback, especially with large primers. Now, if I could have say a $400 machine using Dillon’s primer system, I would be happy.

Am I happy with the XL650, you bet! It is a great machine that instills confidence. I am sure after I have a few thousand rounds through it I will be doing very well. But I would not hesitate to recommend the Lee Pro-1000 to someone starting out who is on a budget if they are loading straight walled, small primer cases. Say 9mm and .38 spl. For large primers, something other than the Lee will have to be your choice.

When I originally posted this on GlockTalk, I asked for some feedback from some problem areas: 1. Auto case feeder jams up in the case funnel. 2. Getting some upside down primers. 3. Case leaving station 5 sometimes jams and then pops out causing powder to splash out of the two charged cases.

Number 1 I fixed by putting the small case adapter in the casefeeder. Dillon says to use it for .380s, 32 Mag, etc. But it makes .40 S&W work better also. Number 2 may have been due to some adjustments to the RF100 auto primer filler. Number 3 was due to the ejection wire not being fully down against the shellplate. Thanks to the GTers who helped me out.

Another GTer asked me about price per round comparisons. Well, price comparisons are kind of hard, do you add labor, pain and suffering or not? Professionally, I bill out at quite a bit more than is realistic for "hobby loading". I have some other pursuits in which I make money, but I also felt those rates were too high So for labor, I used $30/hour. Considering the cost of bad rounds, initial cost, and labor (components are a wash), I will be ahead with the Dillon at about 32,000 rounds (about 2-3 years). So with what I have loaded in the last 10 years, I could have bought a Dillon 5 times over. If you just consider the cost of bad rounds, it is about 370,000 rounds. I think I will load at least that many rounds if the Lord has me on earth long enough.

Now, we could get really carried away comparing downtime, benefit/cost ratios, time value of money stuff and on and on, but I think you get the point. Initially, I did not consider that the Dillon might end up being less than the Lee in the long run, in fact I figured I would just pay an extra few tenths of a cent per round. If you compare costs of a Corvette and a Chevette, the Chevette is always going to be cheaper, but that does not mean you'll have as much fun in it as in the Corvette.

I hope that this has helped.

PS. Some advice I gave a new shooter recently…Buy a case of ammo, take a good class and buy another case of ammo. Find an amount you can live with, like $50/month and put into a savings account regularly. In 1-2 years, and a few cases of ammo later, you will know if you really enjoy shooting enough to stick with it and start reloading. If so, take that money from the savings account and buy a Dillon. If not, buy something else.